A little while ago a Premier League club met an up-and-coming manager to discuss their vacancy. The manager in question interviewed better than anyone else, making a big impression. But there was one stumbling block: his age.
He was young and, in management terms, relatively inexperienced and that made people nervous. It wasn't so much that the board didn't believe the manager could do the job, but that the club's high-profile players would not be convinced by him.
In the words of one senior figure at the club, who was speaking on condition of anonymity to protect their position, “When he walks in, they're going to say, 'Who the f*** is this guy?'. And then he's dead from day one'.”
Age, as we're often told, is nothing but a number, yet it means different things to different people in the chaotic world of football management, where the landscape is more diverse than ever. The youngest and oldest Premier League managers — Ryan Mason (aged 31) at Tottenham Hotspur and Roy Hodgson (75) at Crystal Palace — were born 44 years apart.
In the English Football League, Vincent Kompany has just won the Championship title with Burnley at the age of 37, while Steven Schumacher (39) and Kieran McKenna (36) have led Plymouth Argyle and Ipswich Town to promotion from League One.
Elsewhere, the evergreen Carlo Ancelotti has taken Real Madrid into another Champions League semi-final at 63, and Dick Advocaat is still managing in the Netherlands at 75.
As for Neil Warnock, he turned 74 in December and has been posting photos with prehistoric animals on social media in between trying to keep Huddersfield Town in the Championship and preparing for his Are You with Me? live shows across England this summer. Winding down? Warnock is still enjoying winding people up too much to walk away.
Warnock is back making a difference at Huddersfield Town, aged 74 (Photo: Naomi Baker/Getty Images)
All of which makes you wonder whether the age of a manager actually matters.
Has Hodgson, with 13 points from six games, dispelled the notion that you can be too old for the Premier League?
What does it feel like to be the new kid on the block and get the Julian Nagelsmann treatment — “You think you invented football, do you?” — from your opposite number on the touchline?
How much importance, if any, do players attach to a manager's age and experience when they sign for a club?
And why can a manager get away with singing a song from the 1980s but stray into awkward territory when he mentions a striker from the '70s?
“I have changed hugely and I don't know if it's for the best,” David Moyes tells The Athletic.
That feels like a candid response from Moyes after he was asked what the difference is between the 34-year-old who took over at Preston North End at the start of 1998 and the West Ham manager who celebrated his 60th birthday this week.
“In my younger days, I had no baggage,” Moyes explains. “I had no real problem with the media. I had a bunch of supporters behind my dugout always moaning at me. I also had maybe five letters in the letters page in the Lancashire Evening Post. All of that stuff is absolutely gone. I think at that time you could manage a bit differently.”
Moyes talks about being “a bit rougher and tougher” in those early years, at a time when Scottish managers still had a reputation for their bite being every bit as fierce as their bark.
“The difference now is communication is much more important than it's ever been,” Moyes explains. “Players are expecting you to chat to them, talk to them about their life, and we have much more communication with video work and individual clips.
“So, from where I was when players didn't really want to come to the manager's door, and the manager would be giving them the hairdryer treatment, to where it is now, is completely different.
“You probably saw my comment the other day about too much praise can make you soft. I don't like the word 'soft'. But we're having to be more correct than we've ever been.”
An arm around the shoulder, then? “Correct,” Moyes replies. “And over the years, I've used tough love as my way of doing it. I'd like to continue being myself as much as I can, but I understand now I've had to change as well.”
Tony Pulis, who turned 65 in January and has managed more than 1,000 games, agrees.
“Society changes. You're dealing with young people, different situations to what you were brought up with, different standards, a different mentality. So you have to work to get the best out of those players within the life they live. You are dependent on them.”
It is natural to think that a younger coach will be able to connect with the modern player more easily, but the truth is not quite so simple.
“I feel like, because of my age, I have an understanding of the players, what they are going through, what makes them tick and what doesn't,” says Russell Martin, Swansea City's 37-year-old manager.
“I'm just really authentic — how I was in the dressing room at Norwich as a captain. I've approached management by being myself, and hopefully being good at what I do gains you respect and credibility, rather than just being a mate.
“Gilly (Matt Gill), the assistant, and me chat about this all the time — we're not convinced we can be how we are now by the time we're 50. We'll still be ourselves, but will it be perceived in the same way? Because now there's not a huge age gap between us and a lot of the players. Or if there is, we don't feel like there is.
“If we're like this by the time we're 50 in a dressing room that has evolved and is full of young people, does it get a bit lost and feel a bit more awkward for the players? I don't know. That's going to be a really interesting dynamic for us as we get older — if we're lucky enough to be in a job by then.”
At 37, Martin is one of the youngest managers in English football (Photo: Dan Istitene/Getty Images)
Being authentic applies to all ages and can lead to some amusing stories. When Fulham were playing Juventus in a Europa League round-of-16 first leg in Turin in 2010, Roy Hodgson — an erudite, straight-laced and highly-respected man — showed a side to his character that the players had never seen before.
“God's honest truth, he's dancing away, singing Down Under by Men at Work,” former Fulham player Bobby Zamora told The Athletic a few years ago. “He was pumping his guns, his biceps. It was brilliant. I don't know how it got onto the playlist!”
With another manager, that kind of thing could have been ridiculed. But Zamora and his team-mates thought the world of Hodgson and also knew that the manager was just being himself, even if it was unusual to see.
“Roy was very professional and very structured, a good communicator,” Brede Hangeland, another Fulham player, said. “But every now and then, he had his moments where you could say he lost it a little bit and we loved him even more for that.”
Sometimes, though, the passage of time is easy to overlook. A few years ago, Hodgson brought up the name of Malcolm MacDonald and his players looked at him confused. MacDonald was a prolific goalscorer for Newcastle and Arsenal in the 1970s and, for a certain generation, instantly identifiable. Hodgson, however, was not talking to that generation.
“It's one of those moments that feels like an epiphany in some ways, because you suddenly realise, well, why should they know who Malcolm MacDonald was?” Hodgson reflected. “He stopped playing before most of them were born. It just reminds you that you have to be very careful with your analogies and the people you refer to.”
“Shut up and sit down. You think you've invented football, do you?”
Roger Schmidt, now in charge of Benfica, made those remarks to Julian Nagelsmann on the touchline in October 2016, eight months after Hoffenheim had caused shockwaves by naming the 28-year-old as their new manager.
Nagelsmann ruffled a few feathers in the Bundesliga when he first took over. He was remarkably young to be managing Hoffenheim — five of his players were older than him — and sections of the German media dismissed it as a publicity stunt.
In reality, it was anything but that, and it is fascinating listening to Alexander Rosen, the sporting director who was behind the decision to appoint Nagelsmann, as he explains not just why Hoffenheim were convinced that it would work but also why it should be viewed as a one-off.
“When we talk about Nagelsmann at 28, this is one of 1,000, 10,000, 100,000… this is really special,” Rosen tells The Athletic. “We cannot compare all the young coaches to Nagelsmann because this is an extraordinarily talented young man.”
An important point that Rosen made at a press conference in 2016, one that is often overlooked when young managers are appointed, is that Nagelsmann had already been coaching for years. At Hoffenheim, Nagelsmann had worked his way up from the under-16s to be assistant coach of the first team and Rosen and others were blown away by what they witnessed at each stage of his progression.
“There was not any doubt that he could do it in terms of quality and expertise,” Rosen adds. “The only thing is, when you make an announcement for such a young manager in the Bundesliga, it just can happen that you lose the first three games — and then you never know what happens next. How does he handle the stress with the media? Are there some players older than him going against him and do not accept him?
“Two years before the club were looking for another assistant coach of the first team from the academy, and we said to take Julian. They took him and then I saw how, at the age of 26, he was acting with experienced national team players, and he was accepted. So that made it easier.
“People from outside were just looking at his age, and they were saying, 'What are they doing? Is this a marketing (trick) from Hoffenheim?'. But they (quickly) saw what kind of coach he is and why we did it.”
Rosen admits that it was a perfect storm in many ways. Nagelsmann was an exceptionally talented young coach who was in the right place at the right time. The fact that the senior professionals at Hoffenheim had already accepted him prior to his promotion to manager was crucial to his chances of succeeding. So, too, was the culture of the club and Hoffenheim's unwavering support.
“If you announce such a young manager, you cannot leave him alone,” Rosen adds. “You have to be a partner (with him) as the sports director or a CEO. You have to support him, sometimes you have to correct him, you have to let him go, you have to let him make mistakes.
“You have to find the right balance with experienced people in his staff but also similar thinking. And, of course, you cannot start at 28 in Bayern Munich. Perhaps you cannot even go there at 34, as we saw now.
“The environment is also important. It's much easier to develop in Hoffenheim with less media, with less pressure from outside, with a small club being close together and supporting and not playing games, like blaming him.
“It was a clear commitment from everyone in the club and then you just have to be brave and live with the critics.”
As the altercation between Nagelsmann and Schmidt illustrates, young managers are often viewed with suspicion and sometimes worse, especially if they dare to be different.
Martin, who took over at Milton Keynes Dons at the age of 33 and moved to Swansea two years later, knows this only too well. Now 37, Martin is wedded to a brand of passing football (only Manchester City, Burnley and Bayern Munich have averaged more possession than Swansea this season across Europe's top five leagues and the Championship) that rubs some people up the wrong way. That Martin is young also seems to influence how certain managers judge and speak to him.
“Some of them have been incredibly helpful, and some of them have been incredibly guarded,” Martin replies, when asked about his interaction with older managers. “Some of them have been brilliant. I had a couple ring me when we had a tough period in January and February, and I was so grateful for that.
“A few have been quite open with their dislike for me or the way we're playing. I don't know where that comes from. Maybe they see me as a young manager who is really stubborn in what we do and I wear what I want on the sideline. If they don't know me, it can come across in a certain way. But if they do know me, they understand that it's really not like that. I am just being myself.
“I was speaking to a more experienced manager about it recently. He said, 'Listen, we're all threatened by any young manager who comes up — you'll be the same in 10 years'. Football goes in cycles. But then whenever you look at teams who really need help, or are really struggling, they always go for someone experienced.”
Lee Johnson was the youngest manager in the EFL a decade ago when he started at Oldham Athletic aged 31 before moving to Bristol City. Now in charge of Hibernian in the Scottish Premiership, Johnson has racked up almost 500 games as a manager. The early days were interesting, though.
Johnson got his first managerial job aged just 31 (Photo: Ian MacNicol/Getty Images)
“You come in like a young gun-slinger and they test you at times,” Johnson says, smiling. “I think they do it on purpose. I know Neil (Warnock) well now, but he was a good example. He was like, 'These youngsters come in…'.
“What I found was that managers I had played against or had managed against me respected me a lot more than that older crew. So, yes, I did notice that (kind of thing) but I didn't care. It was just a case of dog eat dog — win the game.”
Highlighting Nagelsmann's story, Johnson says that a lot of younger managers will have extensive coaching experience behind them before their first job (Kieran McKenna, who coached youth teams at Spurs and Manchester United before taking over at Ipswich, is a good example), and that gives them a significant headstart on some ex-players.
“I've seen very good players be horrendous coaches,” Johnson adds. “A lot of these guys go on the courses and I'm looking at them thinking, 'You are terrible'. Top, top players, people who are pundits, who cannot get on the grass and coach. I've seen people melt.
“And then I look at someone who has coached 1,000, 2,000 hours with young players, or in academies, and they've mastered the art of coaching. It's very different from playing.”
The art of management is another step again and, Johnson admits, experience is invaluable when it comes to dealing with off-the-field issues, in particular “managing up”.
Indeed, Warnock says that his best piece of advice to any young manager would be to “get a good chairman or a good owner”. That, of course, is easier said than done.
“Gainsborough Trinity taught me a great lesson,” Warnock adds, referring to his first managerial post. “There was a chap in charge called Ken Marsden. They told me that he picked the team for managers as well. And early on in my career at Gainsborough, I'd signed a striker called Stewart Evans from Rotherham. I was going to play him in the Cup. Marsden saw me before the game and said to me, 'The directors don't think you should play him today. Are you playing him?'.
“And that was the most important moment in my whole career because in a split second I thought to myself, 'If I'm not strong now, he's going to walk all over me'. I said, 'Yes, I am going to play him, Ken. You can tell the directors that he's in my team'.
“Ninety minutes later, he (Marsden) was waiting for me coming off the pitch. He said: 'Could we get Stuart Evans on a contract?'. He'd scored two goals and he was going to Sheffield United, which he did. What a good lesson.”
“Age never came into my mind. What always crept into my mind is, 'Are the managers in charge?'. Do they have control of the changing room?”
As a former player who spent more than 20 years at the highest level, Brad Friedel's perspective is interesting, especially given what he says next when he starts to reel off the long list of managers he played under.
Friedel stops when he gets to one name. “AVB is younger than me,” the former United States goalkeeper adds.
He is talking about Andre Villas-Boas, who was appointed Tottenham Hotspur manager in 2012, at the age of 35. Friedel was 41 at time, and that makes for an intriguing dynamic.
How did he find that experience? “Well, that's where it comes down to the player,” Friedel says. “The player, if they wanted, could be a little bit mischievous. I wasn't that way inclined, I wanted the club to succeed and AVB was a really nice guy and I wanted him to succeed too.
Friedel (right) respected Andre Villas-Boas' position at Tottenham (Photo: Tony Marshall/Getty Images)
“But if the older, experienced player feels slighted, they would have the power to do things. I don't think that's correct. As a player, you sign a contract as a player to do the best for the club. You don't sign a contract with your own agenda.”
For Martin Kelly, who moved from Liverpool to Crystal Palace in the summer of 2014, the experience and track record of his next manager was a key factor in his choice of club. Unfortunately for Kelly, that manager — Tony Pulis — left on the same day that he signed.
“It was Jamie Carragher who said to me before I went to Palace that Pulis was guaranteed to keep you in the Premier League,” Kelly says. “And in terms of you being a centre-half and wanting to learn that position, he's renowned for turning young pros into really good centre-halves.
“Palace were one of two or three teams that had solid interest, but Pulis' experience — and the understanding that he would keep Palace in the league — was a big reason for me joining them along with being at that game, that night (in May 2014), when Palace and Liverpool drew 3-3 — the atmosphere… I've never heard anything like it, other than a Champions League night at Anfield.”
Kelly has worked with some big names — Rafael Benitez, Kenny Dalglish, Brendan Rodgers, Sam Allardyce and Patrick Vieira among them. But it was Hodgson, who was in his seventies when he arrived at Palace for his first spell, who left the biggest impression.
“As elite players, we've got to the stage we're at because of our talent and hard work,” says Kelly, who has since moved to West Brom. “But with a lot of us, it can go missing on the formations or giving a specific role for a player that asks too much of them. Roy's tactics were very clear and simple, and you knew exactly what you had to do.”
And what about Hodgson's longevity? “I would say Roy loves football. He doesn't ever not think about football. That's always infectious, to understand how passionate he is in setting a team up to win a game. That's why he got so much out of players, along with being probably the best man-manager I've had.”
Advocaat laughs. “I said it more than seven times that I will quit management,” he tells The Athletic. “I feel good physical-wise. I check myself (medically) twice a year. But for me, and I think for other managers who are my age, how long have you still got to live? At our age, that's difficult to say. But the profession… it's still great to do.”
Advocaat was coaching the Netherlands at the age of 70. Five years later, he is back at ADO Den Haag, managing in the Dutch second tier and at the club where his playing career started in the 1960s. He has been here (the United Kingdom), there (a dozen clubs in the Netherlands) and everywhere (Iraq, Russia, Serbia, South Korea, Belgium, Germany, Turkey and UAE) since.
“I am as fit as I was 20 or 30 years ago. But you have to start thinking now that it can change in one day. That's the reason I took a small club here, in The Hague,” Advocaat explains. “It's probably the same with Roy as well, because he probably lives near Crystal Palace and that makes it easier for the family.”
A love of the game, rather than money, fuels their desire to carry on. Hodgson joked when he returned to Palace that he doesn't “kick the ball as well as I used to”.
Yet at the age of 75, nobody is expecting either him or Advocaat to be joining in five-a-sides — something that managers rarely do these days anyway.
“I think what the (Palace) players said about Roy, that's the way it is: they don't look how old he is. They just look at what he's saying, how he talks to them and the results,” Advocaat adds. “Being honest, being clear, telling the story — that is the best thing you can do as a manager. Don't lie. Just tell the truth. But the most important thing is that you win.”
Warnock is another who suffers from the same addiction to management. He took his “last job” at Palace in 2007. Sixteen years and eight clubs later, Warnock, now 74, is back in the muck and nettles of a Championship relegation battle with Huddersfield Town.
“I couldn't be full-time any more now, doing 10 months of the season, up and down the motorways, hotels — that's a young man's job,” he says. “That's why I enjoy my little jobs in February, March and April.”
Although Warnock maintains that “95 per cent of being successful is man-management”, he also talks about the importance of moving with the times and embracing technology. In his case that extends to being on Twitter.
The irony is that it wasn't long ago that he was rollicking players for being on social media. “Oh my god, I did as well,” Warnock replies, laughing. “I used to say, 'I think you're sad, you lot. Why does somebody want to know what you had for breakfast?'. And now I'm on it — it's brilliant!
“My dinosaur (tweet) was a good one. We were in New York before I took the job, and we were in the museum when they (Huddersfield) phoned me. People said about me being a dinosaur, so I got Sharon (his wife) to take a picture of the bloody big dinosaur behind me. That had millions of hits.”
It seems unlikely that Pulis will join Warnock on social media or make a return to the dugout. After spending the best part of 30 years living away from home, Pulis is enjoying being back in Bournemouth and spending time with his grandchildren.
He is certainly fit enough to be out on the training ground every day — aged 65, Pulis is still in the gym at 6am, just like he was as a manager. But the hunger isn't quite there now.
“I could do it tomorrow,” Pulis says. “I've been offered the Cardiff job, the Huddersfield job. But I don't see it as anything new in my life. And, like I said to Deb (his wife), I've been very fortunate because I've managed at every level, from the fourth division right through to the Premier League, I've been to cup finals, I've got Manager of the Year.
“If there was something that came along that was a little bit different, it might — might — tickle me. But everything in football now… I don't want to do it again. I had that short spell at Sheffield Wednesday (in 2020 and which lasted for 45 days) where it was my fault. I went in there on the basis that I honestly thought: it's a big club and with the crowd, the atmosphere and everything else, I could light a fire there.
“Of course, it was COVID-19, so there was no atmosphere. It was completely foreign to me. It was like managing reserve games. And I didn't get that fire in myself. I recognised that pretty early.”
Still, one of Hodgson, Advocaat or Warnock — maybe all three — will be flying the flag for football's elder statesman for a little while longer yet. Their passion, knowledge and experience are valued by clubs and also respected by those who are at the beginning of their own managerial journey.
“I will not be doing it at 75!” Russell Martin, who is half their age, says, laughing. “I hope by then I'm living on Rhossili beach. If someone really wants me to take a job at that point, they have to come and find me.
“And I don't think anyone will go to that effort, so I'll be all right.”